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Jerusalem's Old City to get cable cars
#1
Israel https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50315910 Israel

A controversial plan to build a cable car network in Jerusalem's Old City to transport visitors to one of Judaism's holiest sites has been approved by Israel's housing cabinet.

The cable cars will ferry up to 3,000 people an hour about 1.4km (0.9 miles) from West Jerusalem to the Western Wall in occupied East Jerusalem.

Israel's government says the project will reduce traffic congestion.

But opponents say it will damage the area's historic landscape.

They intend to petition Israel's High Court of Justice to stop it.



Yeah, this is probably a pretty good idea to solve traffic congestion: there's not a lot of room to extend the roads, so the alternatives would be to build over or under them (and I assume building under them would be way more expensive, and might risk damaging the historic buildings).

Hopefully, the cables and the cars themselves will be designed in such a way that the don't look too out of place - but, I expect it'll go the same way as many of these controversial infrastructure projects: a lot of complaining at first, and then people will just get used to it. (Besides, if the project raises more money from ticket fares and increased tourism, then that money can be re-invested into maintaining the historic buildings, which sounds like a win-win!)
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#2
they could have made alternate routes as well, tourist destination especially to older locations always tend to have these issues. I can see cable cars having similar issues of cable clutter and also limiting an already limited span of road though it might be the best solution for now. until of course they get some kind of short range aerial transport.
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#3
(11-06-2019, 09:39 PM)GrieferLord Wrote: they could have made alternate routes as well, tourist destination especially to older locations always tend to have these issues. I can see cable cars having similar issues of cable clutter and also limiting an already limited span of road though it might be the best solution for now. until of course they get some kind of short range aerial transport.

I am pretty sure aerial transport for not even a mile would be costly to the point where it is not worth it. A simple two seater (so pilot+ passenger) costs about 200/hr USD in 2010, that is not taking in to account the pilot's salary and the fact that a two seater is impracticable for this purpose (larger helicopters = more fuel and more repairs and maintenance needed). Then there is the issue of noise pollution, planes and helicopters are noisy.

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(11-06-2019, 09:50 PM)Lurker101 Wrote:
(11-06-2019, 09:39 PM)GrieferLord Wrote: they could have made alternate routes as well, tourist destination especially to older locations always tend to have these issues. I can see cable cars having similar issues of cable clutter and also limiting an already limited span of road though it might be the best solution for now. until of course they get some kind of short range aerial transport.

I am pretty sure aerial transport for not even a mile would be costly to the point where it is not worth it. A simple two seater (so pilot+ passenger) costs about 200/hr USD in 2010, that is not taking in to account the pilot's salary and the fact that a two seater is impracticable for this purpose (larger helicopters = more fuel and more repairs and maintenance needed). Then there is the issue of noise pollution, planes and helicopters are noisy.

I was thinking more along the lines of either larger drone transport or via an above the street monorail. both of which would also have complications and there isnt room for them. no matter how you slice it there will be some kind of rather large con. the question then comes to which is the least unappealing.
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#5
I'll admit, I have a bit of a soft spot for monorails myself :P . I guess it'd have the same disadvantages as the cable car aesthetics-wise, although it'd probably have a higher capacity if they can: a) afford it, and b) fit it in.

As for the larger drone transport... I'm not sure I see why that would be more economic than a helicopter? (Maybe in the far future with some hypothetical technology we haven't yet imagined - but, with current technology, I can't see really how it would be financially viable)
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#6
(11-07-2019, 01:19 AM)GrieferLord Wrote:
(11-06-2019, 09:50 PM)Lurker101 Wrote:
(11-06-2019, 09:39 PM)GrieferLord Wrote: they could have made alternate routes as well, tourist destination especially to older locations always tend to have these issues. I can see cable cars having similar issues of cable clutter and also limiting an already limited span of road though it might be the best solution for now. until of course they get some kind of short range aerial transport.

I am pretty sure aerial transport for not even a mile would be costly to the point where it is not worth it. A simple two seater (so pilot+ passenger) costs about 200/hr USD in 2010, that is not taking in to account the pilot's salary and the fact that a two seater is impracticable for this purpose (larger helicopters = more fuel and more repairs and maintenance needed). Then there is the issue of noise pollution, planes and helicopters are noisy.

I was thinking more along the lines of either larger drone transport or via an above the street monorail. both of which would also have complications and there isnt room for them. no matter how you slice it there will be some kind of rather large con. the question then comes to which is the least unappealing.

Depending on the type of drone you are talking about:
1) Military style "Plane like" would still generate a lot of noise and require take off and landing strips requiring a lot of space.
2) Civilian Quad copter style, although it would require less space for take off/landing (Al la helicopter) it would still generate a ton of noise
THe reason why drones are not as noisy as their manned counterparts is because they require less power and size as they are unmanned and don't carry large payloads, as soon as you add in the requirement of carrying human passengers you may as well have a normal helicopter or plane.

As @ Kyng pointed out monorails would still have an issue with aesthetics but from what I can tell would not be a major source of noise pollution, also above-the-ground rail systems are not "aerial transport", where as an Aerial Tram would be. But at lease in the US the newest one in Portland had a lot of people who'se houses it would go over upset.

There is also the option of an underground transit system, if the area is stable enough gelogy wise and but it may run in to issues in terms of local laws about artifices since the area is so old.

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#7
which again are all avenues, and with the drones you can carry a surprising amount with them and depending on the size can adjust capacity and such but again thats all in design here and efficiency. an aerial tram like an enclosed one could work or a skii lift style but again that also is an aesthetics thing and while a subway could work again it depends on if the ground is stable as mentioned and or if there are any unknown buried buildings or necropolises there. either way no matter how you slice it it will come down to what has the least amount of cons.
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#8
(11-07-2019, 01:03 PM)GrieferLord Wrote: which again are all avenues, and with the drones you can carry a surprising amount with them and depending on the size can adjust capacity and such but again thats all in design here and efficiency. an aerial tram like an enclosed one could work or a skii lift style but again that also is an aesthetics thing and while a subway could work again it depends on if the ground is stable as mentioned and or if there are any unknown buried buildings or necropolises there. either way no matter how you slice it it will come down to what has the least amount of cons.

So, exactly how much is "a surprising amount"? According to this page, the average carrying capacity for a professional drone is 20 to 220kg, which sounds like more than enough, considering the average adult weighs under 100kg. However, there are a couple of problems here:

  1. Tourists like to travel around in groups, and it'll often be inconvenient for those groups to be split up. If these drones were single-seaters, then families with children would be completely unable to use them (if you had a family of 2 adults + 2 children, then I suppose they could split up into two pairs of 1 adult + 1 child; however, I think two-seaters would be the absolute bare minimum to make something like this workable in the real world).

  2. The drone would need to carry more than just the people themselves. It'd also need seats, harnesses, some kind of covering, and all the other equipment required to make the journey both safe and comfortable. (Indeed, there's a good chance that all of this put together would weigh more than the passengers themselves)

  3. Also for safety reasons, there's going to need to be some leeway built into the designs. If you're expecting your drone to carry up to 300kg in everyday use, then it shouldn't fall out of the sky the moment someone tries to use it to carry a payload of 301kg. (This is important for freight drones, but doubly important for passenger drones)

If we allow 100kg per person, and an additional 100kg of safety/comfort equipment for each person, and 100kg of leeway, then this already gets us to 500kg (and, honestly, I suspect that even this is below what would be required in the real-world: as a layperson with no specialist knowledge of the engineering challenges involved, there will almost certainly be other things I haven't considered, which will push the required payload capacity up even further)

As for the underground metro option: I did find out that a high-speed rail line from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv opened recently, and the station in Jerusalem is 80 metres below ground. I'm curious to know why it's so deep: my searches didn't turn up a good reason (it could be the historic buildings, it could be that the rock isn't stable enough), but you don't build 80 metres underground just for the heck of it, so there must be some reason why they've chosen to do this. In any case, I don't think stations as deep as this would be very practical for an underground metro system: you'd need to go down 80 metres, then travel a short distance on the train, then go up 80 metres in a different part of the city. I don't envy the people who would need to climb 80 metres of stairs on the day when the elevators are out of order :( ...

On a lighter note, I think this is a perfect time to use our 'aerial tramway' emoticon Aerial tramway !
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#9
I think they built them so deep as a sort of defacto bomb shelter if it comes to that for the metro system.
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