Srs Bsns What the bible says about LGBT

[Jarkko]

The other important thing to emphasise is that we are all sinful and all experience temptation to do things that the Bible prohibits. Romans also says that there is none who is righteous, no not one. And we all have different temptations which we will succumb to at different times. I personally know Christians who have struggled with same sex attraction, and have even in some cases previously been in same sex relationships. But they now want to choose to follow God over following their sexual urges, and I have so much respect for them in that. Really, they are the people who are best placed to talk about this issue. There is a pastor called Vaughan Roberts who has openly discussed his personal struggle with same sex attraction, for example in this interview. I'm sure with a bit more research I could find some other examples - people often mention Rosaria Butterfield as someone else who gave up her sexual desires for Christ.

Pyrite Other examples include Emily Thomes and Jackie Hill Perry.

They are still people and should be treated with equality and respect.

I fall under this banner myself, being asexual.

What's interesting about asexuality is that this one specifically is not frowned on in Christian circles (oftentimes referred to as a "call to singleness" that is to be respected), at least among those who don't have ulterior agendas (by this I mean singles who are unduly mad about not having romantic attention reciprocated), and in fact, some Christians go to the exact opposite extreme and romanticize it. 1 Cor 7:7 sees the Apostle Paul say he wished that all were as he was (as he was unmarried effective of right around the time he converted) but he concedes that not everyone has that gift, which is a more balanced view.

Otherwise, I take the same stance as Pyrite. As with so many things in the Christian walk there is a certain balance that needs to be maintained and I feel our personal stance maintains that. Too many outside the church associate the "official Christian" view of this issue with Westboro Baptist Church whose views on basically anyone who sins betrays their extreme hyper-Calvinism (which is considered heretical by almost everyone, even other less radical hyper-Calvinists!), or with Steven Anderson, a KJV-Onlyist with a legalistic streak longer than Russia, but a Christian who condones willy-nilly violence against anyone using the Old Testament to justify it could do with reminder of the fact that a. the OT also had the closest thing the ancient world had to due process b. most Christians agree that the punishments of the OT were abrogated by Christ on the cross. (Covenantals would say church discipline replaces this, and proper church discipline - which should never include violence - is outlined in, among other places, Matthew 18, 1 Corinthians 5, and 2 Corinthians 2:5-11)

BTW, thank you to everyone for keeping this discussion reasonably civil.

[slooroo]

I don't think we should listen or follow what the Greeks and Romans say about it. Back in those days they believed all sorts of things and ideas that would be considered crazy or illegal nowadays. For example, they used to kill every player on a sports team that lost a match, have no laws, murder people for fun, etc. 
  
I personally believe God is disgusted when people are homophobic and use him as an excuse to be homophobic. I bet God would want Christians to be accepting of homosexuality, and stop being homophobic.

There's multiple points I can make with this post so I'll try my best.

1. You're equating homophobia and homosexual activity to some extent. A Christian isn't going to argue that homophobia is bad in the sense that hatred against any person is going against becoming closer to Christ. On the other hand however a (non-progressive) Christian is still incapable of ignoring The Bible's verses on homosexuality and cannot see it as an acceptable lifestyle either. This is why you hear the line "Hate the sin not the sinner" that some dread when spoken.

This leads into the ultimate philosophical argument about The Bible. Do we see The Bible as the perfect word of God with zero errors or do we accept The Bible is a product of the times and people who wrote it, therefore there will be things to ignore? If you chose the first option there's practically zero option to become "pro-LGBT" in the sense that many activists would want. If you chose the latter it leads into the slippery slope of if you say it's okay to ignore one thing about The Bible then where do you stop before you reach the final conclusion of no God? This isn't exclusive to LGBT either. Abortion and many other topics would also fall under this same conundrum with The Bible.

2. My point with the Greeks and Romans is that their societies were adjacent to the Israelites and the three shared many similarities (since the three blended so heavily and in ways made our modern culture anyway.) Views on homosexuality would be one of these things. Ancient Israelites wouldn't have had any higher view of LGBT than most if not any other culture in their region.

So let's look on some verses.
“However, you must not let any living thing survive among the cities of these people the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance. You must completely destroy them – the Hethite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite, and Jebusite ….” (Deut. 20:16-18)
 
“Now go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Do not spare them. Kill men and women, infants and nursing babies, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.” (1 Sam 15:3)

By modern standards this would be considered both genocide and displacing native peoples. The Bible however has God directly commanding the Israelites to do this. It's impossible to place modern values on ancient texts and ancient societies. Going back to LGBT acceptance it's a VERY new phenomenon even in our current society. England, Wales and Scotland didn't legalize gay marriage until 2014. Northern Ireland didn't until 2020. The US didn't until 2015. That said this only means it's legal. We're far from any sort of full tolerance or acceptance and probably won't be anytime soon. It's also for the moment also impossible for theologians to fully reconcile LGBT acceptance and The Bible.

Side Note: We share The Bible with the Jews and most Orthodox Jews would say homosexuality is forbidden for any human being as per traditional Talmudic understanding of Jewish law.

[Cool Cory]

Why would God hate LGBT people? What could they possibly do that causes such harm or problems to other people? Nothing at all, so it would make no sense why God would create LGBT people, then say it's bad. It would be like God saying that anyone born with blue eyes is sinful, or that anyone born with brown hair is sinful.

The bible conflicts with reality big time. I've heard some people have become atheists after seeing how some Christians view LGBT. All the discrimination does it turn people away from religion or make them afriad of it.

I've been a 100% straight Christian all my life. However, I'll always support LGBT people. I don't believe the bible is fully accurate (it's centuries old and was written by sexist men back in a very different world) and I believe God does support LGBT people.

[Kyng]

Okay, I normally stay out of these kinds of topics (unless I need to moderate them) - but, there are a couple of points from the above post that have been made multiple times, but which have gone unaddressed. So, I feel I need to address those.

First of all: I have to emphasise that nobody here is arguing that God hates LGBT+ people. That is the position of certain churches that get a lot of attention in the media - but it is not the position of anybody who has posted in this thread. Even the more conservative members, who believe that sex is only Biblically permissible when it takes place between a married man and woman, are not suggesting that God hates people simply for being attracted to the same sex, or even for acting on that attraction (any more than He would hate anybody else who committed any other sins - because if He did hate people simply for committing sins, then He would hate absolutely everybody!).

Secondly: if your argument is "The Bible has been translated badly", then you really need to back that up by demonstrating that the specific verses that people quoted have been mistranslated. That is: go back to language in which they were originally written, and show us what a more accurate translation would be. Otherwise, "bad translation" simply becomes a carte blanche for anybody to ignore any verse that they don't like - and at that point, why not just throw out the whole thing?

Thirdly: a point that's really aimed more at those members whose position is "Sex is only Biblically permissible when between a married man and woman", but who nevertheless want their churches to be as welcoming as they can possibly be to LGBT+ people subject to that point. This would mean expecting the church's homosexual members to give up sex forever, whilst expecting their heterosexual members to give it up only until marriage. That means they're asking a lot more from the former group than from the latter group. So, what is the best way for such churches to demonstrate to their LGBT+ members that they understand that this would be a much bigger sacrifice for them?

And finally: this is obviously a very sensitive issue - so I'm pleased to see that people all around have been remaining civil when discussing it. In a lot of other places on the internet, any attempt to discuss this issue would simply result in a flame war - so, I'd like to thank everyone who's participated so far for not going down that road !

[Pyrite]

So as an evangelical Christian, I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. That doesn't mean that there aren't mistranslations of God's word, but I believe that the book in its original language is the inspired word of God, and thus has no flaw or issue in it.

I would point to three passages that, in my opinion, clearly show that the Bible states that homosexuality is sinful. Those would be Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 (from the Old Testament law) and Romans 1:26-27. Additionally, you have Jesus talking about marriage being between one man and one woman in Matthew 19:4-6. The Bible clearly teaches that sex outside of a marriage between one man and one woman is sinful.

I don't agree that it's exactly God's accurate words. The bible was written by humans, not God or Jesus. And the Bible is a complicated book written by sexist men thousands of centuries ago, and the bible has been added to, mistranslated over and over, and had parts taken out many, many times over the years. The original bibles were written in different languages that aren't spoken today, so of course they'll be massively edited or badly translated.

So I don't want to stray too far from the topic but the inerrancy of Scripture is a completely different discussion. However, we can verify the canon of the Old Testament because Jesus Himself used it and referred to it. As for the New Testament, the books were carefully determined by the early church, and are all written by early church leaders and apostles. Paul writes in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that "all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work". And Paul was given his commission by Jesus Himself. So I would trust his words on the matter. 

With regards to the attitudes of the men who wrote the Bible, I don't think it's at all fair to call them sexist. Time and time again women are valued and appreciated and pointed to as examples of faith. Rahab, Ruth, Esther, Deborah, to name a few. In fact, the first ever witness of Jesus' resurrection was a woman: Mary Magdelene, whose life Jesus had completely turned around. I would challenge you to point to passages you regard as sexist, and perhaps then we could have a conversation about that. 

As for mistranslations - that is a problem but only in small cases. We have the books in their original language and many, many scholars have studied them in order to produce the most accurate translations possible. 
 

And why did God create LGBT people if he hated them? God would not have created LGBT people and made being LGBT natural and unchangeable (which it is) if he believed being LGBT was wrong. It would be like if God said being born with blue eyes is sinful. 

I believe God supports LGBT people and doesn't find them sinful at all.

God created people, who were originally sinless and perfect. We were then given the choice either to follow Him or disobey Him. We chose the latter. He doesn't force us to be obedient, but there is a cost to sin. As an example, If I had sex with my girlfriend outside of marriage, I would be committing sin by going against God's ordinance of it being for a marriage between one man and one woman. My natural desire might well be to have sex with her now, but it is only natural because I am a sinful human being, a product of many other sinful human begins before me, all stemming from the first sin that Adam committed. I can only be right with God because Jesus died for my sins, and through Him I am forgiven. God doesn't force us to love Him, but He does call sinners to turn from their sins and follow Him instead.

Now, one caveat I should absolutely make here is that it's much easier for me as a straight man to go without sex for a relatively short time and then enjoy it within a marriage to a woman. It's another thing entirely for a gay man or woman to abstain completely from sex because they want to obey God instead. One of my girlfriend's good friends is in this situation and he would be far better placed to talk about it than I can ever be. I would also very much encourage you to look into the words of Vaughan Roberts - as a Christian pastor who struggles with same sex attraction, he is also far better placed than myself to talk about this issue.

Again, I have to point back to the Bible itself. That is where we learn what God regards as good, and what He regards as sinful. He does not hate sinners, He hates sin. He loved me and sent His Son to die for me in spite of my sin. And He offers the same grace to all people, regardless of their race, age, gender, sexuality or anything else about their nature, if only they would turn to Him.

Very happy to discuss any of these points further - I must emphasise though that I do understand that it's an incredibly difficult thing to reconcile one's faith and one's sexuality. I think that the church needs to be better at being welcoming and showing love to LGBT+ people, but I don't think the way to do that is to pretend that the Bible doesn't say what it clearly says.

[Cool Cory]

I made this topic to promote Christianity, and to also try to show my fellow Christians why they need to not discriminate against LGBT people. I never meant for this thread to become a debate.

I can't be bothered to post pssages from the bible and translate them, since that would take hours, and I'm too busy with real life stuff, like work, spending time with my wife, playing Xbox, etc. 

I have an LGBT friend who was struggling to cope in life a few years ago, then she finds herself a girlfriend. Suddenly their happy together and all of that girl's  previous depression is gone. Why should the church be against that relationship when it's been a good thing for her that helped improve her life? How would something that has only helped her (and not caused problems for anyone else) be considered "sinful"?

Also, Pyrite, the few friends I have that are LGBT hve said being LGBT natural and unchangeable (which it is). So, it isn't a choice, according to my LGBT friends.


I think some people just use the bible as an excuse to justify bullying and discriminating different people. That's why some Christians bully LGBT people. They just pretend to use the bible as an excuse to try and get away with the hate. Hate is not a valid spiritual path. Hating someone because they love somebody is just so wrong, and that definitely isn't Christlike behaviour.

I've seen a few churches display pride flags outside of them. And my old primary school (which was a Christian primary school) also had a pride flag outside it once. So, it's nice to see some churches are accepting reality and understanding that the bible's verses about LGBT stuff are not true.

[Pyrite]

Also, Pyrite, the few friends I have that are LGBT hve said being LGBT natural and unchangeable (which it is). So, it isn't a choice, according to my LGBT friends.

Just to be clear, I don't believe that it's a choice to experience same sex attraction - it is natural for humans who live in a fallen world to experience a whole plethora of desires and urges. I believe the choice is whether or not we act on them, and that's where the choice is either to follow what God says in the Bible or not to do so. That's why I have so much respect for Christians who have same sex attraction but choose not to act on it, and why ultimately they are the best people to have this conversation.

Since it's also clear to me that you don't wish to engage in a debate on the topic, I won't post in here again unless another person wishes to engage on the subject. I believe I've made my position quite clear, and that it doesn't stop me from loving anyone but rather encourages me to show love to everyone regardless of their sexuality.

[Shiny Star]

It has been really educational to read this discussion so thank you to everyone who has contributed so far.

Although I know that sex before marriage is frowned upon and considered sinful, I didn't necessarily in my head realise that it is as sinful as homosexuality. It's not directly singling out people with same sex attraction. There are plenty of Christians who have sex before marriage and I have heard of Catholics who have experienced divorce. Although this would be frowned upon in Christianity, God is forgiving and they are able to hold onto their faith and live onward. I can imagine though with homosexuality it is almost an ongoing thing that is uncontrollable. Say someone who has sex outside wedlock, they have committed the act but with homosexuality, it can almost feel like you are constantly living in sin, like looking at someone of the same gender for too long could feel long. To be able to contain the natural human urge shows a lot of dedication and strength both ways.

I found the following on a website.
 

God created humans to engage in sex only within the arrangement of marriage between a male and a female. (Genesis 1:​27, 28; Leviticus 18:22; Proverbs 5:​18, 19)The Bible condemns sexual activity that is not between a husband and wife, whether it is homosexual or heterosexual conduct.  (1 Corinthians 6:​18) This includes intercourse, fondling another person’s genitals, and engaging in oral or anal sex.

 While the Bible disapproves of homosexual acts, it does not condone hatred of homosexuals or homophobia. Instead, Christians are directed to “respect everyone.”​—1 Peter 2:​17, Good News Translation.


Source: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/qu...sexuality/

I did some digging and there was a documentary about a mistranslation in 1946. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/de...ocumentary.
 

The film hinges its premise on the fact that the word “homosexual” appeared for the first time in the Bible in 1946, in an apparent mistranslation of the ancient Greek words malakoi – defined as someone effeminate who gives themselves up to a soft, decadent, lazy and indolent way of living – and arsenokoitai – a compound word that roughly translates to “male bed”. While people could take it to mean man bedding man, within the context of the time, scholars believed that arsenokoitai alluded more to abusive, predatory behavior and pederasty than it does homosexuality.

The director and producer Sharon “Rocky” Roggio documents the journey of the Christian author Kathy Baldock and Ed Oxford, an advocate and gay man who grew up Southern Baptist, as they dug through archives at the Yale Sterling Memorial Library. There, they discovered correspondence between the head of the translation committee and a gay seminary student in which the committee head conceded with the student’s point about the mistranslation. In the next translation in 1971, the committee changed the translation from homosexual to “sexual perverts” – but by then the damage was done. Hundreds of millions of Bibles with the wrong translation had been published, and conservative religion and conservative politics soon banded together to push an anti-gay agenda.

Although, personally for me it's quite evident that this is from someone who has manipulated the text and it's not God's word. You can imagine how damaging this could be as I don't think the Bible is directly homophobia. I still stand with my point that it's more how people spread the word and interpret it which leads to it to be perceived that way than the text itself. I read somewhere about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. They were two cities which were destroyed for wicked behaviour. The moral of the story has been twisted by some people to say that it was to condemn homosexual acts. However, a lot of people agree that this is not the main message case and that it is to demonstrate the violation of hospitality.

I would also like to say that from this conversation and my reading, Christians are told to respect and be kind to others so homophobia would not be following God's word. The Pope also showed support for gay people which speaks volumes.

I am a bit out of my comfort zone discussing this but I am finding it very insightful so if there are mistakes with what I have said then please point them out.

[LadyJirachu]

I think homophobia is disgusting. I admit, I am not Christian—and, honestly, I find following any “religion” causes me stress in general, so I just avoid doing so (judge if you wish). But I think it’s sad that any religion would tell people it’s not okay to be attracted to or in love with who they are naturally drawn to or that they can’t be the people they truly are. I don’t see how that’s fair or okay, personally….

I am not trying to start an arguement with anyone. But this is just how I see things. I am hyper sensitive to any human beings having to suffer, period, as well. I will end this post now.

In my opinion, love is love, and God created us all to be individuals. And now the post is over from me.

[Moonface]

The argument about not having sex outside marriage so as to not go against God is all well and good, except it isn't like gay marriage has been legal for a considerable amount of time in any of our lifetimes and especially not in human history. If a gay couple are or were prevented from getting married because laws, churches, and/or the Bible forbid it, they're then expected to share zero sexual intimacy on top of that? There's no waiting in that scenario for marriage to come along as can be argued for a straight couple wishing to avoid sexual intimacy before marriage, because the latter at least knows marriage is available to them whenever they are able to partake in it while a gay couple who can't get married due to laws against it may not even see the law changed in their lifetime (see: any gay couple in the US or Europe before any gay marriage laws were passed in the last 20 years). It's hypocritical for anyone, even God, to state "No sex before marriage" and then be against marriage for gay couples, and anyone who believes that but also claims to support queer folk is providing hollow support because why should queer folk have less rights and/or more restrictions than straight people?