Srs Bsns What the bible says about LGBT

[Cool Cory]

I'm not LGBT myself. I've always been 100% straight, and I'm married to my wife. I'm also a christian who has read the bible many times, and visited chruch lots as a child.

I don't get why some christians think LGBT is wrong. The bible never mentions it being wrong, and even if it did, the book is centuries old and was written by people during a period that has different beliefs, culture, lifestyle,  andit  has been added to, mistranslated over and over, and had parts taken out many, many times over the years. That's why there are quotes that seem anti-LGBT.

Also, if two gay people are happy in a relationship, then why is that considered wrong? After all, if a relationship is helping and making people happy, and not causing problems to others, then why is that considered bad? I don't get why some christians think LGBT people are bad simply for loving who they're attracted too. 

Jesus never mentioned being LGBT is wrong.


Obviously, the bible has lots of great parts and verses in it and has so many inspiring quotes and great stories. But there are some parts in it that haven't aged well, or have been translated badly.

[Kyng]

First of all: due to the sensitivity of this issue, I've added the 'Srs Bsns' prefix:

Srs Bsns
This prefix denotes threads which, in the opinion of the staff, cover particularly controversial issues. In the interests of maintaining decorum, these threads will be somewhat more tightly moderated than usual - particularly with regards to incivility and trolling. Furthermore, any low-effort one-liners and sarcastic replies are to be avoided if they can easily be misconstrued as personal attacks. (Jokes and lighter tones in general are still allowed; however, they mustn't target an individual or group's ideas, or otherwise be provocative in nature)

Secondly: while this thread does concern a book, it has nothing to do with 'reading as a form of entertainment' - so, I don't believe it belongs in the 'Reading' sub-forum of 'Entertainment'. I think 'Morality and Ethics' is the most appropriate place - so, I've moved it there .

Finally, a reminder once again to engage in a civil manner that's respectful to all of your fellow members (regardless of what stance they may have on this issue). If it starts to descend into a flame war, then I'm simply going to lock it - so please, don't make me do that!

[Pyrite]

So as an evangelical Christian, I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. That doesn't mean that there aren't mistranslations of God's word, but I believe that the book in its original language is the inspired word of God, and thus has no flaw or issue in it.

I would point to three passages that, in my opinion, clearly show that the Bible states that homosexuality is sinful. Those would be Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 (from the Old Testament law) and Romans 1:26-27. Additionally, you have Jesus talking about marriage being between one man and one woman in Matthew 19:4-6. The Bible clearly teaches that sex outside of a marriage between one man and one woman is sinful.

Now, the question to me then becomes how Christians ought to respond to that. The Bible also clearly teaches to love your neighbour as yourself. So I think it's important to emphasise that regardless of someone's sexuality, it is the job of a church to be welcoming to them and to show God's love to them. I don't expect people who don't believe in God and His Word to follow it, but I will pray for them and speak to them about Him if the opportunity arises. Jesus often went and talked with sinners - not approving of what they did, but loving them despite that and telling them to turn away from their sins and towards Him.

The other important thing to emphasise is that we are all sinful and all experience temptation to do things that the Bible prohibits. Romans also says that there is none who is righteous, no not one. And we all have different temptations which we will succumb to at different times. I personally know Christians who have struggled with same sex attraction, and have even in some cases previously been in same sex relationships. But they now want to choose to follow God over following their sexual urges, and I have so much respect for them in that. Really, they are the people who are best placed to talk about this issue. There is a pastor called Vaughan Roberts who has openly discussed his personal struggle with same sex attraction, for example in this interview. I'm sure with a bit more research I could find some other examples - people often mention Rosaria Butterfield as someone else who gave up her sexual desires for Christ.

I understand that not all people who identify as Christians have this opinion, but that's where I stand and what I would call broadly the Evangelical perspective.

[slooroo]

So some of this isn't my own opinion per say but I am arguing from the Christian perspective

On Leviticus: 

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22
"If a man lies with a man as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Chapter 20 verse 13

Usually these are traditionally understood to be no homosexuality at all with the idea that the Israelite neighbors did practice homosexuality and other sexual practices that the Law of Moses was banning to have a higher purity among God's chosen people. Some in reverse argue these verses aren't actually banning all homosexual relations but only anal penetration.

On Romans:

"That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved." Chapter 1 verses 26 and 27

This one seems clearer against all homosexuality with most church fathers in agreement that this is Paul's intention with only Augustine with the light variant of it only again being about anal penetration.

On Lesbianism & Transgenders:

Technically The Bible doesn't talk about these topics much or at all. The thing is that's because ancient societies put very little interest in women in general beyond any household or religious duties. Sappho may be a legendary Greek poet with lesbian themes but it's only because of her poetry we think of her lesbianism at all. So Biblical writers would've had little interest in the subject any more than their male pagan counterparts. As for transgenders it would be difficult to classify how ancient peoples viewed it because transgender as we understand it today is a modern concept even if gender dysphoria was likely a thing back then too. Perhaps they were classified as homosexuals or the "effeminate" or just not thought about at all.

"I don't get why some christians think LGBT is wrong. The bible never mentions it being wrong, and even if it did, the book is centuries old and was written by people during a period that has different beliefs, culture, lifestyle, andit has been added to, mistranslated over and over, and had parts taken out many, many times over the years. That's why there are quotes that seem anti-LGBT."

With the above verses most Christians are going to see homosexuality as a sin at worst and a practice that isn't encouraged by God at best. Similarly a lot of Christians believe The Bible is God's holy word and lacks doctrinal errors (only allowing for potential translation errors) so the Christian response would be "It doesn't matter what modern society thinks because God's word is superior to modern opinion."

"Also, if two gay people are happy in a relationship, then why is that considered wrong? After all, if a relationship is helping and making people happy, and not causing problems to others, then why is that considered bad? I don't get why some christians think LGBT people are bad simply for loving who they're attracted too. "

Ultimately in the western world our secular courts have decided that it's perfectly legal for LGBT to be married and live happy, fulfilling lives and for the most part Christians may grumble but will accept that's law of the land. Ultimately however if God says it's wrong then it must be wrong even if it's a divine mystery as to why on some level.

"Jesus never mentioned being LGBT is wrong."

Jesus didn't directly talk about a lot of subjects. He didn't flat out say pedophilia or drug use or many other subjects were wrong either. So a Christian must take into account the words of the Old Testament writers and the letters of Paul are equally as much God's words as any direct quotes from Jesus.

"Obviously, the bible has lots of great parts and verses in it and has so many inspiring quotes and great stories. But there are some parts in it that haven't aged well, or have been translated badly."

Which is fine to think unless you are a type of believer that must believe that The Bible is the divine word given to man then you have to view the Bible differently.

Now it's worth adding some context. The Bible was far from the only society against LGBT. The Greeks saw it as weakness. The Romans believed it was a sign of social and spiritual degeneracy that could risk the collapse of society itself. We as humans have only come to our modern (relative) acceptance of LGBT in very recent years. The Quran is equally as against LGBT as The Bible. This is a really new phenomenon and it's still unacceptable in most parts of the world. Religion however believes in an immortal truth that isn't swayed by modern opinion. It's also worth noting this is from the point of view of conservative and moderate Christians. Progressive Christians would have their own views of how to interpret the Bible and how LGBT fit into the God's plan.

[Shiny Star]

Interesting. I am not familiar with the Bible so reading the posts before has opened up my knowledge of quotes that I didn’t know about. I was under the impression that any context that alludes to homosexuality often targets gay men, however I can see that there are broader quotes that go outside of that. 

In my opinion, I think that the Bible to an extent can be up to your own interpretation and belief. As mentioned already, the writing is word directly from God. For me, I’ve always seen belief as what you believe and interpret from something so sacred. There may be variations on how people interpret what was said and that’s okay. The Bible can be great guidance to show how to live your life and treat others. However, there are multiple religions etc so as long as everyone is respectful of each other, it’s all good. 

Personally for me, I feel like the anti-LGBTQ+ views stem more from how the Bible is discussed and interpreted than God himself. I do think there is the argument that society has changed a lot and there shouldn’t be homophobia full-stop regardless of religious belief. I’m not familiar about how other groups are discussed, such as women, to comment on that element of it but I think that would be interesting.

I think I find it sad that there are people who are religious who feel like they are unable to embrace their religion and their sexuality. People cannot choose their sexual orientation and they can feel such shame because of it. That isn’t fulfilling. I understand there are some people who choose to remain celibate and to fight temptation, but I also wish they could know it is okay to be religious and embrace that side of themselves. God is all-loving and we are made in his image and different. It must be such a hard conflict for people in that position and takes a lot of determination. 

My mum was born in the 1990s in a Catholic country. I remember that growing up she held quite homophobic views because of her upbringing. She was respectful and didn’t bully or target LGBTQ+ people. However, I don’t think she understood much about it and had that fear. She wasn’t transphobic and I think she wasn’t exposed to it when she was younger to know. I think that’s why that wasn’t an issue. She ended up understanding that happiness and people being gay is okay. We live and get on with it. Did that make her less religious? No. She still firmly believed in God but also showed that love and understanding to more people. 

I would say as well that a lot of Christians are respectful regardless of their view on this matter.

[Cool Cory]

So as an evangelical Christian, I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. That doesn't mean that there aren't mistranslations of God's word, but I believe that the book in its original language is the inspired word of God, and thus has no flaw or issue in it.

I would point to three passages that, in my opinion, clearly show that the Bible states that homosexuality is sinful. Those would be Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 (from the Old Testament law) and Romans 1:26-27. Additionally, you have Jesus talking about marriage being between one man and one woman in Matthew 19:4-6. The Bible clearly teaches that sex outside of a marriage between one man and one woman is sinful.

I don't agree that it's exactly God's accurate words. The bible was written by humans, not God or Jesus. And the Bible is a complicated book written by sexist men thousands of centuries ago, and the bible has been added to, mistranslated over and over, and had parts taken out many, many times over the years. The original bibles were written in different languages that aren't spoken today, so of course they'll be massively edited or badly translated.

And why did God create LGBT people if he hated them? God would not have created LGBT people and made being LGBT natural and unchangeable (which it is) if he believed being LGBT was wrong. It would be like if God said being born with blue eyes is sinful. 

I believe God supports LGBT people and doesn't find them sinful at all.

[Moonshroom]

And why did God create LGBT people if he hated them? God would not have created LGBT people and made being LGBT natural and unchangeable (which it is) if he believed being LGBT was wrong. It would be like if God said being born with blue eyes is sinful.

God didn't create LGBT people, that's a choice born of the God-given right of free will.

A lot of things can be both sinful and the result of exercising such right, like murdering someone. I personally don't think homosexuality should fall in such a category, but I can understand those who do.

[Shiny Star]

I wouldn’t say that being LGBTQ+ is a choice. I believe that it is something that people are born to be genetically. Although, I understand that there is the argument that people can choose to ‘exercise’ being LBGTQ+. But they cannot convert away from it. I would also like to think that God doesn’t find this group sinful but I can see with the text and beliefs that it may be perceived that way. 

I do wonder how mistranslations affected the Bible. Although, I do think the overall teachings and messages of it generally are quite impactful and beautiful.

[Cool Cory]

Now it's worth adding some context. The Bible was far from the only society against LGBT. The Greeks saw it as weakness. The Romans believed it was a sign of social and spiritual degeneracy that could risk the collapse of society itself. We as humans have only come to our modern (relative) acceptance of LGBT in very recent years. 

I don't think we should listen or follow what the Greeks and Romans say about it. Back in those days they believed all sorts of things and ideas that would be considered crazy or illegal nowadays. For example, they used to kill every player on a sports team that lost a match, have no laws, murder people for fun, etc. 
  
I personally believe God is disgusted when people are homophobic and use him as an excuse to be homophobic. I bet God would want Christians to be accepting of homosexuality, and stop being homophobic.

[MamaFrankie]

They are still people and should be treated with equality and respect.

I fall under this banner myself, being asexual.